Tech Uncensored - An Altitude Accelerator Podcast

Audio file

Demand Generation is broken_ There is a better way to improve Win Rates.mp3

Transcript

Hessie Jones

So today we're talking sales. More specifically, we're going to be talking about demand generation. So just some broad definitions about demand generation. It is a marketing practice. It's also a sales practice aimed at creating awareness and interest in a companies products and services. It involves various techniques across numerous channels such as content marketing. Social media, etcetera, it's been around for a. On time and, but it's existed in in I guess more of an evolving form in the last few decades. Welcome to tech uncensored, everyone. My name is Jesse Jones. And so one of the catalysts for for this changing sales landscape since the advent of digital has been this decentralization of information. So in the past. A lot of companies. Who are primarily the holders of information about a company's products and services. They actually use traditional marketing methods, methods to actually promote them. So the Internet and digital came along and now these materials and information were more widely available and so. This decentralization gave rise to more platforms and channels of communication, and we've seen this in B2C but also in B2B where communities have have risen. And micro influencers, we see podcasts such as this one. We we see more digital slack groups. Companies had to adjust their marketing and demand generation to rely more on and engaged customer base that in the way that was a lot more interactive and. Personalized as opposed to the one. Way it's also evolved to include more things like marketing automation, predictive analytics, customer intelligence to refine this process to make things a lot more targeted and efficient within this demand generation environment. So my guest is Matthew Trotter and he says now things are shifting. Again, the buyer journey is evolving and 80% of what is happening of that is happening digitally. And he says that much of it is prior to the engagement. With the sales team, so that's going to end. And you as a as a as an organization thinking rethinking your ideal customer profile. So what is this order of new demand generation? What do sales teams need to do to improve their win rates, especially with this evolving buyer journey so? Matthew, thank you for coming. I'll give you a little bit of background on Matthew. He has 25 years of experience in technology, sales and consulting. He's an expert in data AI cloud solutions with a proven track record in designing, positioning, selling and delivering large scale and complex IT programs for some of the biggest enterprises. So he's a high performance sales coach as well. And Co founder of Signal, LED sales groundbreaking sales framework to help a lot of go to market teams address some of these challenges with selling and this digital buyer journey. So welcome. With you. So OK, so. Let's get into it. You've been you. You've had a seasoned career in sales. So tell me about your perspective on demand generation, how it evolved over time. What did it look like 20 years ago? And I guess when you started? I wouldn't say 20 years ago when you started.

Matthew Trotter

Yeah, it's been. It's been a while for sure. And I mean I think you you hit the nail on the head earlier, which is this idea that you know, it's there's a function of marketing. There's a function of sales. It's ultimately about how do we find opportunity, right? How do we find leads? How do we find deals and then subsequently, you know, work those deals through the. So I think in the traditional sense what we've seen over the last 20 years and. It really it really. Hasn't evolved much more in terms of a process is you've got marketing, who's out there, you know, advertising, you know, the advertising models have changed, right? Maybe not. Billboards on the side of the highway and, you know. Call it, you know, pamphlets dropped at your door, but you know that was. That was definitely a model and a system that was used for for many, many years. And then you know, seeing that continue, it's just paper click, it's advertising, it's banner ads on websites, right, it's it's brand awareness when we really think of the the marketing element and it's trying to make sure that everybody who's a potential customer understands who you are as a business. And then understands the value you can drive for them, right? So that's one funnel of. In and then the other is this this traditional kind of sales side, which is where you've got a sales team that's responsible for dealing with some of that inbound marketing, you know, leads. But then there's also the outbound element of sales, which is now as a salesperson, I have to go and actually create my own opportunity. Where I have to look for customers, I have to go hunting, so to speak. Prospecting. Trying to identify who my customer, my best customers are going to be. I'm going to go, you know, pursue those customers and then you know, bring them into. The business and that's still. Almost functioning in exactly the same way it always has, so we typically in that that outside sales world we would have someone in the, you know call it sales development or SDR role. And this person is typically making cold calls all day. They're sending emails and creating sequences where you're set up for, you know, 15 days of e-mail, and you're going to get one e-mail every three. Days or they're going to call you on, you know the phone, and then they're going to reach out to you on social. And so this persons job is really to go out and just generate leads, which then subsequently get passed to the sales team, right? So an account executive or someone else in the company would take that. And then once that lead's been called, it qualified. We now have a a deal. The sales team can can chase and this has existed for 20 years, right? And it's still very, very much the case.

Hessie Jones

Today. OK. So but you said that this traditional, I guess the traditional demand generation is broken and so you said you you won't be able to buy your way out of this problem with tools. So what? Did you mean by that?

Matthew Trotter

It's the way I like to think of demand Gen. being broken is that that the journey that the customer is taking today is an inherently digital journey. And you mentioned at the beginning this idea that 80% of buyers are going through this journey or the the journey, 80% of that journey is happening. Prior to engagement with the sales team, so the customer through digital means is able to do their own research, right? You've got all these great websites, ability to review software. So the customer is self educating. Most of the time, right. And they're going through the process of even getting pricing and quoting can all be done for the most part without engagement from sales and the one to that statistic that you brought up that journey, right, that's where Gartner expects the buyers journey to be by 2025. 80% of it is happening prior to sales. What's interesting is the number of customers who don't want to talk to a salesperson. And those statistics range and vary. But they're in and around 50%. So you figure half of your customers don't want to talk to someone from. They want to do all of this research on their own. They want to get their answers on their own and make their decision generally on their own. So how we think about generating demand has to shift in order to address this change.

Hessie Jones

OK. So was there. I'm not sure if it was a moment, but over time when you're looking at, let's say, your sales performance. Sorts how much of it became a visible problem that things needed to change. Like what? What? Were there any kind of outstanding metrics that identified that, that things were that your sales were not keeping up with the, the amount of information that, let's say customers were getting prior to making their decision? Prior to even engaging with one year sales reps.

Matthew Trotter

Yeah, I think there's there's always metrics. Sales is probably the most metric driven, you know company and when you think of the sales development element which is you know cold calls and emails, what conversion rates and so on. You know, we're always looking at, you know, how are the emails getting opened? If they're opening, are they clicking on the e-mail? Are they following through with what's there? How many of those are converting into meetings? And I mean hyper successful reps, right are able like it's not necessarily dead right. The idea of cold calling a customer is still a very great way of being able to kind of find these leads and and generate leads. But I think the big difference was. Is starting to look at some of these particular incident that happened and so Google for instance, said they were going to clamp down on spam sending. And this just rippled through the sales community, and there was panic. There was mass panic, and they're saying wait, they're going to shut off if we send more than 5000 messages to a domain, we're going to get shut off. And this is it. It it created such a huge concern. And that is just kind of like the a small tip of the spear of what's wrong. Because the answer that most sales people are looking at when they see that is I I send that much unsolicited mail to people that I'm worried about being shut off. By my mail servers, which is always a concern, right? There's so many tactics sales teams use to make sure they like. They spin up new mail domains. They do all sorts of things to just keep this volume of messaging.

So we've all known this is inherently broken and how we've solved it typically is quantity and capacity. So so just produce enough output and it will subsequently convert into opportunities. And So what we're not doing is using our resources as effectively as we could be. Right. And it's that conversion rate and what you saw at 2023 was one of those years that I think was a wake up call. Especially for venture backed companies that had tons of funding because the the solution when you have a lot of funding is we can throw people at this problem. And so you end up with a bunch of money. You throw some people at the problem and 2020-2021, 2022, these were years where it was just we saw the huge advent, some of these sales, you know, organizations were just growing and growing and scaling and all of a sudden 23 hits and. There's this massive kind of downturn in economy. You know, challenges with companies and kind of taking their budgets and what do we do with this giant pool of people who are here trying to cold call and e-mail everyone and it just didn't produce any results. And some of the best performing startups and companies and growth companies that were doing great in 2020 to 2022. Saw 2% growth in 2020. And they couldn't sustain those teams. So all of a sudden it was OK we've got a we've got a cut and it just became this massive kind of layoff structure within within sales of how do we reduce this team and now so they. Have less people. And they still have to deliver growth and output. How to get smarter? So how we're using those resources.

Hessie jones

So was it, was it? Do you think the the amount of layoffs that kind of forced people to figure out a different way to become more efficient because you said. But throwing people have a problem and sales traditionally has been, you know, the more, the more people, more seasoned sales reps, the higher the sales probability, right. And you're saying not necessarily.

Matthew Trotter

No, and it's, you know, sales is an expensive organization. We are you know, ultimately the most costly organization and. Business. So it it became typically what happens when you see budgets clamping down and you start, you know seeing some of those economic wins, those organizations tend to shift instead of trying to find net new customers, they tend to focus on how do we maximize the revenue we have with existing customers. Right. So there's this kind of this? Readjust internally. But you can't just stop finding new customers, you still need. To continue growing your new logos, right and so the the shift is how they retain, right? So they can cut their churn rates by having better focus on customers, right. So the whole organization just kind of focuses on let's retain the base what we've got. And then we still have this outside sales team that's here and the idea was OK, we've got less people, we still have the same number of customers potential. How do we focus on who we should be calling? Because we have 1/3 the number of people to do it and this is where the evolution kind of had to happen almost organically where, you know the smartest sales reps and this wasn't necessarily something done from the leadership level where it was just mandated. Is the sales reps going? How can I be smarter about what I do every day? Because I this is not sustainable and so you saw almost this like groundswell change of reps trying to find ways to be successful. And it was like, well, I have to be ruthless about not talking to customers that aren't going to produce an A result I need. And I really have to focus on. The ones who are.

Hessie Jones

So OK, so tell me about that. You say the buyer journey has changed. So this this is a, it's almost like this new variable that starts to surface. That actually now addresses something that could be more effective in the sales process.

Matthew Trotter

Yeah. So with the buyer doing a lot of that research and not really wanting to talk to sales, I think there's a lot of folks who inherently think, OK, well then this is. A marketing problem. Right.

As a salesperson, you never want to just sit back and be like, OK, I'm just gonna wait for marketing to solve all of my issues, right? So you get creative and you have to. You have to think about this. And so the the magic word that kind of came to light was this idea of intent. Right. So, you know, I can sell my product to millions of different. Types of customers. But if I have a limited. Resource which is time and I can only focus on the ones I need to focus on. How can I refine this and and so this is where the the idea of the ideal customer profile came in right? So we started, you know, and this again has been pretty similar for the last decade and it's creating a firmographic. View of who your ideal customer is, right? So you make a product. Maybe it's ideally targeted in healthcare institutions who are between 1000 and 5000 users and you know they make $500 million A or a billion. Dollars in revenue. Whatever the case, maybe you've created, you know, some guardrails for your sales team to say. These are the customers you want to go after and that's kind of removed the chaff from your your prospecting goal and that's great. But that's still very wide and there's a huge number of those customers that aren't able to buy. Are in no position to be able to buy. You know, perhaps there's no budget, there's nothing going on in their business that potentially would justify. Maybe they've got a competitive product and they're perfectly happy with it they've. Got through your contract all. Of that information is completely irrelevant in when you use just the firm data and the the particular person or buyer, you would be speaking to. So that's where it started that evolved over the last couple of years and moved into this. What I like to call is CPV 2, which is where now sales teams wised up and said, hey, is there some sort of? Compelling event that can happen. That we can use to layer on top of all of this firm data that we have to again narrow the guardrails and say who can we who can we talk to and that started with the big one was around things like job changes or what we would call like second buyer revenue. So somebody worked at a company that had your product. And they ended up moving to a different. Money that doesn't have your product? Well, if they've had good experience with your product and they've gone to another company, that's a that's a compelling event, we can potentially capitalize on to get them to buy your product again. So second order revenue, right, that idea or movement into a role, right? A person goes from being a VP of marketing into a CMO. Right. They want to make some waves. They've got this new job. Great. How can I help empower that. You know, you being successful in this, this job change. So they're starting adding these compelling events and that's where it's sad. Historically, that's kind of where it where it's been and then what I'm, you know, essentially proposing is this idea of moving now the ICP to include buyer intent, right. And this is where we want to get those guardrails down even further because 80% of that journey is happening without us. Why aren't we just focusing? On the fraction of customers within our account books who actually have intent. To buy right, and I think about conserving my time which is limited to focus on customers who actually are going to be of the higher propensity to purchase.

Hessie Jones

OK. So when you talk about the customers with the highest propensity, are there existing customers, I would assume, right, so or how do how do you apply that to to a prospect? Because they have to go down the funnel at.

Matthew Trotter

Yeah. So. Some point. Yeah, it's it can be both, right. And I mean how, you know, we've tried to look at this is very much from the sense of net new customer acquisition. So ignoring the existing customer base so to speak and we think of this as new logo. Acquisition. So how do we find this right? And this is the idea that intent can exist in a number of different ways. So we've had to kind of classify the different types of. Intent and we're starting to see, I think 2023 was that big year where you started to see a number of software companies spin up that were like, hey, we need to help solve this tent problem in sales because this is going to help, you know, refine focus and get people, you know, you know, targeting the right customers. And so we saw this big spin up. Of of intent focus. And the idea behind intent is that there's kind of three real core types of intent, and we, you know, call that zero party intent data, first party intent data and 3rd party intent data and 3rd party intent data has existed for years. There's tons of different types of competitive intelligence. Solutions that can, you know, talk to you about what a customer currently owns. You know if they've got investment or if that customer has been attending certain types of events or webinars or things, you can buy that data right. You can get that from a third party that's able to kind of educate you on that customer's intent. First party intent data is really what you're capable of leveraging as an institution yourself. So if you're a product company and you make a piece of software AC customer who's using a free trial of your application for 14 days is potentially going to be doing things within that application. Which can be sign. That, hey, they're they're actually showing intent in certain areas and you know this is what we need to be focusing on. And there's interaction with your existing website and how they browse and use that content, right or they're downloading white papers and what type of white papers are they using? And then so that's your first party side and then you go to the zero party, which is social media has really enabled this and it's now starting to look at the individual within your buyers committee because. For the most part. It's not just a single person who's buying. There's usually a few people who are involved in that, depending on how complex your solution or product is, there could be 10 people involved in that purchasing decision, or it could be a very small transactional product where you only have one or two people, but it's starting to look across all of those different personas and being able to identify individual action. That has happened signals to be able to say, OK, they're showing intent. So this person has participated in a webinar that we host. Listed that was available or this person posted on social media about this article that they read on, you know, cyber security challenges within the industry and we're starting to use all of those signals that are happening across individual. So now we combine these, these different types of intent and we can create a picture. Of you know, essentially who within our account set actually has interest and intent in. Buying our product.

Hessie Jones

OK, so so now you have all these signals and you have all these different data sources. How do you get them all into one dashboard so it makes it easy for the for your sales reps to to do all this?

Matthew Trotter

Yeah. So that today has been a historically challenging problem because you have 100 different places, to your point of where this data can reside. Sales reps and just speaking from experience, we're inherently lazy when it comes to where I want to get my data from, so it would be great if they could all be in one place. We are starting to see solutions existing in the marketplace that are designed to collect all of this information and pool it. Startups that are being built. Around this because they're realizing that this disconnected data ecosystem is a problem. So you know, this is where the evolution of of sales tooling is essentially going like, how can we collect all this information? But it really is only kind of addressing the first part of this, which we talked about which? Is intent right? So. Great, we have intent, but as sales organizations, how they're handling intent is kind of the way we've been doing it for the last 20 years in terms of customer interaction and engagement is as soon as a customer shows intent, we haven't done any sort of evaluation on what that intent. Means or why they're showing this intent. We don't have that information yet. We haven't done that digging and we reaction. Instead we we immediately say. The intent has created a reaction and our reaction is called the customer or e-mail the customer, and that's the limited amount of direction we provide. So as a sales organization or a sales maker, I'm basically told this customer has intent, go call them. And it's a very generic answer. Right. And it's it's, it's leaving so much on the table, especially when you think. The customer would. Prefer to probably not talk to you, so you're calling out of left field and saying hey, I noticed you've, you know been. Clicking around the website and you've done all these. Any chance you? Want to get up on a call? Probably not. I'm more than happy to continue hopping on the call. What value are you adding to this conversation and that's?

Hessie Jones

So yeah, I I I just. Want to add in there just because I've been on the other side from a marketing perspective is like what are the the different incentives that you as a marketer can do to try to get people to take action, right? And so everything from my direct marketing days has always been about attribution. What specific thing did you do that made them go to the conversion page? They may not have converted, but they got there. So what other things can you do to actually get get them to go further right. And so things like clicks or impressions. We're so far away from the conversion. Mark that you know, downloading a White paper seemed to be seemed to get closer to it, because if they're interested in downloading the White Paper, then obviously there was some kind of relevancy that was attributed to that specific act. But now you're going further and you're saying, you know, it's not really all that stuff because they they may want to download that white paper, but they do not want to hear from you at all. So what are the specific signals that you're looking for when when you're trying to discern like, the the? Best path forward for customers?

Matthew Trotter

Yeah, I think there's one thing you said there that I really want to kind of touch on, which is this idea that they don't want to. Talk to you. Right. And it's when they don't want to talk to you. How are you? How are you able to even get in here? And I want just everybody to just remind themselves of why you don't want to talk to a salesperson. And it's it's having been someone who's been in this for a long time. It it comes playing back to a very simple thing. It's like. I am not adding value. Right. If I'm capable of adding value to a customer, a customer will happily have a conversation with me. But more often than not, and I mean, just open your inbox. There's a lot of completely irrelevant, valueless conversations that are trying to be started which says I'm going to just ignore this so you know it's getting ourselves back in this head of how can I, as a salesperson in this new world. Add value and it's not. Oh, they've shown intent. Call the customer. Oh, they've shown intent. They've done this. Call the customer. It's being able now to say. They've shown intent. This is the intent that they've shown. Why? Like, let's understand what it is that's caused that. Why? That's happened, but let's then subsequently create and this is what we call within the system, an intercept which is relevant to the type of intent or signal that we see, right? So you know a person to the point of downloading a white paper, that white paper. Says something specific, right? There's a particular outcome. It's aligned to a particular industry. There's some piece within that white paper that makes it intent based and relevant to your potential customer. The answer is not go call the customer. It could be that could be through your evaluation that the very next step, the correct next step. Is called customer. But for the most part, it might not be. It might actually be. If this is the thing that's of interest to the customer, the correct next step could be. Here's an invitation to a webinar we have that's talking about these exact things, right? Because that is of value. Right. And it's understanding that if you can continue to add value, the customer will be way more receptive to wanting to interact. With you as a salesperson.

Hessie Jones

You're actually trying to remove that. That whole old adage about the used car sales guy who is willing to talk to anyone to try to improve his sales. Sales close rate but for from this perspective it looks like you know if you identify the right customer at the right time from the beginning, then it probably will make you more effective, right and efficient. I would say, right.

Matthew Trotter

Yeah, 100%. It plays back to just this idea of the Pareto principle of if I have 500 a thousand 3000 accounts, especially in that sales development type role where you are handed lists of customers, it's very rare that as a sales development Rep, you'd end up with 30 customers. All this you're going to end up hundreds if not thousands of customers to call and dial. Every day. Three months, the question becomes, OK, great. How do I reduce this narrow my guardrails so I can actually tier all of these customers into these are high priority because we can filter for intent and we know that these customers are the ones we need to actually curate the journey for. And be able to have an actual plan of attack. Right, so there's. Kind of the two elements. The 1st is the planning side, which is. How can I be better focused with my time? Reduce who I'm trying to reach out to because my time is protected and limited. And then the second element is once I know that these are the people I'm reaching out to, what are the actions and steps that I take in response to each of these types of signals? And that's what's missing today. That's what's broken. So we have all sorts of sales companies who've gotten on the wagon of intent intent's important. We got to do intent, right? OK, cool. Now, there's all sorts of intent systems and people are starting to build all of these tools and. Frameworks around intent, but what they haven't addressed is the generic response of the signal or the intent, right? They're not actually coming up with a real what is the next step in this journey? How curating this journey? It is a very action reaction type of approach. Versus we've created the journeys appropriately based on the types of actions and intent. Signals that customers are showing us.

Hessie Jones

OK, so I. I would assume that that's going to be like a test on a case by case basis until you figure out like what are the best practices when it comes to like these specific intents. Is that right?

Matthew Trotter

Yeah, there's, there's no hard and fast rule on what equals what right each company and product team, each marketing team they your product is unique, right? How it works, right? The people who consume your product, right? The people who sell products to security teams versus people who sell products to marketing teams. Completely different person. And so the exercise is really going through taking your ideal customer profile and starting to now map intent, both the zero first- and third-party layer and understand when we have these signals. So this is how we're going to filter our account list down to the customers that. We really need to focus on and then. Throughout the quarter and whenever we're pursuing these customers, what are the exact actions that we take based on the types of signals and intent that we see, very specific journey and marketing as a piece of this right they potentially can, you know overlay and you know they're doing their own kind of cover cover fire on these accounts and they're still doing the thing that the sales team. Really needs to make sure they're. Time is focused in the area it. Needs to be focused.

Hessie Jones

Yeah. And I I would think it would go back to first principles like being really a good listener and once you have them now, it's like just validating that through conversation, right?

Matthew Trotter

Yeah, it's think of like being a good listener now as being we kind of talked about this idea of the. SDR role has to evolve. Into an intent analyst. A person who can look at this intent. And then subsequently identify what we need to do with it to be able to say, OK, here's our focus area, this is how we're going to respond to this customer. We're curating this journey so we can create a better buyer. Right. Because remember the buyer self educating. So if if I just leave buyers to their own, you know thing the the company with the best marketing website and you know all the best reviews on the. Internet is going to be the one. Wins and so I can't do that as a salesperson, right? I have to be able to try to, you know, shift that conversation, but do so in a way that's actually, you know, aligned with these different types of signals and intent. So that building a better buyer is really that, that idea that we're trying to embrace here.

Hessie Jones

It seems to be obviously a lot more dynamic these days, so you have to keep on top of the customer. OK, so last question, so your, the your company is developing this method through signal led sales. So what's been your experience so far in in applying this framework? And what has been the outcome compared to not using it before?

Matthew Trotter

Yeah. So it's had a massive change in terms of amount of outreach, right. So what we're seeing is just this reduction in amount of outreach and that I think for a lot of organizations is a big, it's a scary topic, right? They're always worried about, hey, if I go into my HubSpot. And I'm sending. Thing you know, 10s of thousands of unsolicited messages, there's a very real possibility hotspot might jump me off or, you know, I'm violating the terms of use of of these mass mailing solutions, because I really don't have the customers now consent to be, you know, doing all of this cold outreach so. Seeing a massive reduction in that is is kind of step one right and then the focus area really makes sure that we're having more informed and intelligent. Discussions with the. You're still going to always find situations where you know this information is available, but the Rep who's potentially engaging with the customer hasn't, you know, taken the time to really consider that information. But the reps, who are in tune with kind of the approach and why it makes sense, are definitely seeing a higher outcome in terms of, you know, more informed conversation with the customer, better understanding what the customer is looking for, which is leading to one faster opportunity like faster opportunity conversion rate. So from the time the opportunity shows up until the time the opportunity closes, seeing that time horizon reduced because there's way better understanding. Of exactly what's? Happening and then being able to actually increase, you know wins within the account because you have actually influenced that customers buying journey? Before any other vendor had the opportunity to potentially do it because they were in the same boat and this is the thing you have to remember, if everyone's using intent. Because these tools are, if you're using the intent data your competitors are using the intent data, everybody's apparently educated on intent. How are you differentiating your sales motion versus someone else? And it's really on the intercept. Aspect of this. Which is what are we doing? In reaction to the sin. Right.

Hessie Jones

It almost like you need an AI to actually beat them at their own game. If you all have the same data. But I mean that I. I think that's learning right and that's it's it's being able to have access to that information as it becomes available.

Matthew Trotter

Yeah, access is one piece right like and again it's it really does play back when you think of a sales organization you are trying to find your way to have a leg up and when everyone has access to the same tools, right, you look. At the. Sales tooling world right? This is why you can't buy yourself out of this problem. Everyone can buy the. But it's not actually the answer, it's really only one component and the 2nd component is having an accurate and effective strategy for. What does this mean and how can I subsequently then guide the customer without them feeling like sales is adding no value to this right and all of a sudden myself team is actually highly valuable and they're actually influencing this?

Hessie Jones

OK, perfect. That was a great closing remark, Matthew. Thank you so much. This is this is going to be valuable because we have a lot of startup organizations that are getting to a point where they do have to scale right and that they're trying to do it in ways that that is less tools based. But more I would say. I don't know if if they if they could use the gut to define when's the right time to talk to somebody. It is really intent and if you think about it, it's more intuitive than you think. But now we're trying to somehow operationalize it right in our systems so that we can be effective and create. Maybe a standard or process overall within the organization?

Matthew Trotter

Yeah. And I mean this is the playbook model, right? Like a sales leader who has a playbook and says this is how I do things. The interesting thing that you know, I see. Is that you've got sales leaders who saw great success in 2019-2020, 2021, built these playbooks around this model that was really built on scale and having a lot of money being pumped in the organization. It's like, oh, we'll solve this problem. You want to go from 10 million to 100 million, awesome, we just throw. 30 SDR's at this they go. Cold, cold people we bring on. And the reality is, is that funding vehicle doesn't exist. That money's not there, and it's work smarter, not harder, which is kind of the new the new world. And so those playbooks that were built aren't exactly relevant in a lot of cases like, yeah, there's some good stuff in there, but we really do have to shift. To efficiency and how we do help out.

Hessie Jones

That's awesome. OK, so intent intent based selling the new order for demand generation. Thank you so much Matthew for for taking the time to providing some of these really, really helpful tips to for for our founders to increase their sales effectiveness. I'd love to. I'd love to connect you with some of them if they're if they're interested in learning about the the the most efficient ways to to become more effective in closing deals. So for our audience, thank you. If you have any topics that you want us to cover, please e-mail us at communications at altitude. Accelerator.ca in the meantime, everyone have fun. And stay safe.

Matthew Trotter

Thanks Hessie.

Hessie Jones

Thank you.